Today, Art Witch turns 2 years old! We’re celebrating with an extra special episode on money magic with the amazing Jessie Susannah Karnatz aka the Money Witch. In this episode we deep dive into the magical, spiritual, emotional, and practical aspects of money and our art. Everything from the ethics of crafting money spells under structural oppression to how to make a living from your art. You will not want to miss this episode, as Jessie Susannah channels so much healing and compassion around money and finances.
Today, Art Witch turns 2 years old! We’re celebrating with an extra special episode on money magic with the amazing Jessie Susannah Karnatz aka the Money Witch. In this episode we deep dive into the magical, spiritual, emotional, and practical aspects of money and our art. Everything from the ethics of crafting money spells under structural oppression to how to make a living from your art. You will not want to miss this episode, as Jessie Susannah channels so much healing and compassion around money and finances.
Mentioned in this episode:
About the Guest
Jessie Susannah Karnatz, aka the Money Witch, brings capitalism-critical, shame-free education to healers, hustlers, and creatives in order to catalyze change in their financial lives. She believes healing our finances will bring blessing to our lives, our lineages, and our communities. She offers education, Money Magic products, and Intuitive Financial Coaching online and in the Bay Area (unceded Ohlone land) and does it all with impeccable business lady style.
Jessie Susannah's book - Money Magic: Practical Wisdom and Empowering Rituals to Heal Your Finances
You can find more information on her work at
Instagram @money.witch
Teachable https://money-witch.teachable.com/
YouTube at youtube.com/moneywitch
Twitter @money_witch
Patreon http://patreon.com/moneywitch
About the Host
Zaneta (they/them) is a queer, multi Brooklyn-based sound ritualist, listening educator, nature recordist, creativity activist, tarot reader, and podcast host. At the core of their work is a deep desire to remember how to live in interconnectedness. Whether that is through meditation and connecting with the self, or in community rituals to connect to the land, Zaneta weaves sound and ritual to create experiences that transform the way participants hear and connect to the world.
In the spirit of an interconnected world, Zaneta focuses on supporting folx to make their art and express themselves fully, knowing that interconnection and interdependence are rooted in our individual wholeness and that our authentic creative expression is at the heart of that wholeness. It’s towards this collective vision that Zaneta offers channeled tarot readings for creative liberation, and offers readings to support artists in navigating their careers and projects.
To learn more about Zaneta’s work visit
Instagram @soundartmagic
About the Podcast
Art Witch is where creativity, magic, and healing align for personal and collective liberation. Hosted by Brooklyn-based sound ritualist, arts educator, and tarot reader Zaneta, Art Witch aims to provide resources for the creative journey. In this podcast you’ll hear from a variety of artists, witches, healers, and experts sharing their wisdom and stories, all with the intention of helping folx make art and share their unique magic with the world.
Art Witch has a Patreon community where members meet regularly for group meditations, full moon rituals, and community conversations on art and magic. In addition, we have a full library of meditations and videos for the creative mystical journey.
To support this podcast and become a member, visit www.patreon.com/soundartmagic
Instagram @artwitchpodcast
Money Magic with Jessie Susannah Karnatz aka the Money - Episode 38
Zaneta: [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. And welcome back to the podcast. I'm your host Zaneta and thank you so much for tuning in.
Zaneta: This week actually marks the two year anniversary of this podcast.
And I am so, so thankful for everyone who has supported this work, who has connected with this work and who I've met through this work.
October 12th was the first episode. The first episode that aired. And I remember how this project kind of came into being, it was about a couple of weeks or so before that podcast episode came out and. One day, I just had a vision of the podcast in its entirety. From start to finish. It was the theme song. It was the logo. It was the blurb.
It was all the people I wanted to talk to and all the things that I wanted to get [00:01:00] into and just all of it kind of came to me in a rush, kind of meteor, right and that landed on my door. And I just created kind of everything within one week. Even the interviews that were scheduled, we're just pretty instant.
And those first several episodes were all kind of scheduled at the same time. And everyone just kind of said, yeah, I'm open. I'm ready.
And it's been just a really beautiful, beautiful journey. Ever since. So I just want to thank you all so much at this moment, that just feels significant to say thanks so much for sharing these episodes for connecting on Instagram. For leaving reviews for supporting the podcast financially in Patreon for just writing a [00:02:00] kind note to me or saying, hi,
I really, really, really appreciate it. It's one of the best parts of this work is all the people that I have met and everything that I feel like I've learned through meeting all these amazing people, yourselves included. So please continue to connect. I really, really love it. If you would like to give an extra bit of love and support to this podcast, you can become a Patreon member.
You can also leave a review. Reviews are really helpful. If you haven't left a review yet, please leave a review on iTunes or a rating on Spotify And also, you know, when you share it on Instagram, when you tag us, you know, my account is @soundartmagic. And the account for the podcast is @artwitchpodcast when you kind of tag us or share things that really helps too, [00:03:00] because people find out about these episodes. So. Thank you to everyone who's ever done that. It's just really, really great.
Also happening this month, our creativity tarot readings. A big part of this podcast is the new moon creativity tarot readings that I channel each lunar cycle for our community around our creative journeys. And this month, I'm opening up one-on-one sessions for creativity tarot readings. So if you are interested,
in having a tarot reading for your art for a project that you're working on. To suss out any opportunities or, you know, just find where you're at on your creative path. Then this is a really great time to schedule a reading. I find that the tarot in particular is an amazing, amazing source.
Of healing [00:04:00] and also. Helping us to return to our innate wisdom. And the wisdom that is around us through our connections and available to us at all times. From our guides from spirit. From the angels the energies that we invoke, all of the loving and supportive. Beings and energies that are available come through readings and sometimes, you know, living in this society, trying to make your art. There are a lot of narratives, a lot of narrowing narratives that obscure our perception. That obscure. The truth of our process and our creative practice. A lot of times the tarot helps to clear away those limiting narratives. It helps to clear away what may be holding us back or what may be standing in our way. And help us to kind of return to [00:05:00] a place of truth with our art and our magic. So I love giving these readings. I've been doing them for several years now. And.
I really focus on supporting people's creative practice and process. So, if you feel like at this time, you're really needing support for your career, your creative path. For dissolving any limiting beliefs or blocks around your art making process, this reading space is for you. If you feel like you are not able to identify as an artist or that you feel uncomfortable stepping into that, but want to.
This reading space is also for you. A lot of times people ask me like, well, I'm not an artist. But can I get this reading because I do want to make art and the [00:06:00] answer is yes, you most certainly can get this reading. In fact, a big part of the reason why I started reading tarot was because I was trying to find assistance in liberating, my own creative practice and process. And it transformed my life. It transformed my life in many ways. I went from not feeling confident to being able to put out my work and to step into situations opportunities and to grow as an artist. And so I think the tarot helps us grow in the ways that are most available to us and to give ourselves permission to really thrive in whatever way we need at this time. So I'm going to leave a link in the description below. If you would like to [00:07:00] book a reading, there are only a few spots left for this month, one of which is on Samhain.
October 31st Halloween. So if you would like a little extra potency in your reading, a little extra thinning of the veil and really want to get some of that ancestral connectivity, I believe the ancestors are always present, but this month, especially is a really powerful month. If you want to connect your ancestors into your creative process and journey.
That is available. There are also sliding scale spots available for BIPOC folx, for two-spirit LGBTQIA+ folx, and for chronically ill and disabled folx. So please feel free to write me at soundartmagic[at]gmail.com, for more information about that.
And one last little announcement for this month, specifically this week. On Sunday, October 16th here [00:08:00] in Brooklyn, I am going to be a part of a really awesome event that is on the ritual use of psychedelics. And my partner and I are going to be leading a guided sound journey around this topic and this work and mycelial connection, This topic is really interesting to me and has a lot, a lot of resonance. I think as an art witch I am very, very interested in the ways of that. How religious lenses have co-opted ceremony and ritual from people and kind of, I want to say moralize them in ways that almost dichotomize the use of plant medicine.
That plant medicine is not okay. Or it's not okay to use psychedelics or things like that. And I am so interested in hearing about kind of the [00:09:00] history of other religious practices and things that actually incorporate say mushrooms and psychedelics and psychoactives and things like that. So,
I am going to be partnering up with my amazing partner, Chris Dingman,who's an amazing channeler of sound and we are together going to be weaving a sonic journey around this topic and this kind of connectivity and this feeling into the mycelial network. So. If you would like to be a part of this, if you want to attend this event, it's like a lecture and a sound journey in one.
This is happening this Sunday, October 16th. At 6:30p, there are tickets available, still and this is happening at the Brooklyn Society for Ethical Culture, in Park Slope. So I will leave the link down below. In the [00:10:00] description, for more information about that.
And without further ado here is today's episode.
Today I am so excited and grateful to have Jessie Susannah Karnatz on the podcast today. Her work has been super, super impactful for me just in understanding money, understanding how our spiritual journey and our healing journey can really kind of invoke the best possible connections that we can have to money and how our money can move through the world.
And I feel really grateful to have her on the podcast today because she put out this amazing book called Money Magic, The Practical Wisdom and Empowering Rituals to Heal Your Finances. And I feel like there's something about money and creativity and all that it's worth really diving into and giving ourselves time and space to explore.
[00:11:00] So I wanna give a big welcome to Jessie Susannah.
Jessie Susannah: Thank you so much for having me Zaneta it's really an honor.
Zaneta: I've been thinking a lot about money, I think ever since I started this podcast. One of the things that I had always hoped was that as we talk about people's personal journeys making art, as we get into, creative blocks, we're also getting into sustainability and thriving. The individual journey and just the joy of making this work and how we can also just be supported in making our work and our art and we always usually start out with journey on this podcast.
We talk a lot about like each guest's kind of personal journey into their work. And so I'd love to hear actually a little bit from you about how you got into Money Magic and what kind of brought you to writing this book.
Jessie Susannah: The short version is I got into money magic, or like, my money magic origin [00:12:00] is from being a stripper. And I spent like eight years in strip clubs, in the sex work industry in my twenties.
And you know, this was also in like 2001 to 2008, I guess. So it was much more cash based, you know, than even clubs are now. Right. Or just the world is now. The world was like a bit more cash based at that time. And certainly strip clubs were, and certainly like, you know, whatever low end strip clubs, which is my preference were very cash based at that time.
And so I really feel like energetically spending so much time with cash, like with cash on my body, with cash in the building and kind of like sweat, it's almost like a cash sauna or something. And I just am [00:13:00] very energetically connected to and drawn to actual cash currency. So I feel like a lot of the magic element, especially, you know, I make money magic products like essences and oils and things like that.
And I feel like, you know, the physical aspect of my business, the material aspect of it is really born out of my like, physical, visceral relationship with cash.
So for me , it comes from that.
Zaneta: I love that so much. It feels like such an embodiment practice, that you're in your being so deeply and the cash is so connected to that.
Jessie Susannah: Right, it's like I'm in my sexuality, I'm in my body, I'm moving my body and I'm also, you know, like I said, there's sweat. It's warm. So there's this kind of like radiation, and then I'm [00:14:00] also naked most of the time. Right? So it's not even just about being around cash. It's like having skin to skin contact with cash,
And then there's like a bonding there. And I feel like that feels super alive to me. That feels like the piece of the flame that's like the most close to the wick in my whole practice.
Zaneta: Mmmm I love that description so much. I think that there's something really deep there because there's a lot of kind of like cash is soulless or like money is soulless or even that it's cold, like cold hard cash.
Like these phrases that we hear in society, and hearing you talk about it there's such richness and sensuality and depth that calls me in. It's like a siren call.
Jessie Susannah: Mm-hmm. I love how cash smells and some people feel really do feel like it's dirty. I mean, physically it is dirty, right? Lots of people touch it and it's been circulated and [00:15:00] touched by like a lot of people, but it doesn't gross me out, you know, from like a kind of germaphobe standpoint. It feels warm and alive to me.
Zaneta: Hmm. You know, I kind of wonder, do you have any practices around like, leaving the money on your altar before you move it, spend it or work with it or anything? Do you ever have like any practices like that around clearing money or things of that nature?
Jessie Susannah: Yeah. There's a book I would recommend if people kind of wanna follow this little rabbit hole a little bit it's called Money is Love: Reconnecting to the Sacred Origins of Money. I think the author's name is Barbara Wilder and it's a pretty small book and definitely written from like a Eurocentric standpoint, she does some exercises in it.
One of them I do a sort of modified version of sometimes when I teach, but it's called Spiritual Money Laundering, where you meditate with the money and like clear it of all the energy that is [00:16:00] come, you know, into it and then recharge it with love before you send it back into circulation.
It's just like what you would do with a crystal, but that you would do it with like cash that circulates into your life. And I think you could do it with your debit card or, you know, maybe even your phone.
It's so interesting to think like we are these little circulation points in this massive circulatory constellation, right? Of resource. And I think when the world was more cash based, that was more tangible in a certain way or we conceptualize it a certain way, but like, what does it look like now that we're moving resources in electronic ways, you know, to transfer those systems.
But yeah, for me, I mean, I'm the money witch. This is my life, so I have money altars, you know, little ones everywhere. Definitely if I receive, you know, large amounts of cash, a payment from somebody in cash. I put it on my [00:17:00] alter and just sort of let it do its thing, get blessed up before I recirculate it.
And I'm also kind of careful sometimes if I pay for things in cash, I'll sort of be intentional about like, 'Oh, I wanna pay this person with this cash.'
That came in and has been like sitting in this place.
Zaneta: That gets me thinking about this conscious relationship, this really co-creative relationship with money in a really powerful way. And I know you've shared a lot about that, in your website, in your book, on your Instagram, like you do so much of this public work and sharing.
But for those who are really new to this topic of Money Witchery, Money Magic, would you care to just give us a little bit of a brief overview on what is money magic as defined maybe by your experiences.
Jessie Susannah: Magic is in my definition, taking responsibility for your personal energetic power, [00:18:00] right? Acknowledging that each individual human and also other entities has a personal energetic field, which, I don't even think is like a controversial or a wacky statement at this point, right?
Like that's just kind of like scientifically true. And then that if you have that energy and your energy has impact on the things around you which it does, then it's a sphere in which like you could responsibility, right? Like you could do that in a responsible fashion, which means understanding what your energetic sphere is like and understanding its impact, and being careful and intentional in the way that you engage with that or use that or, you know, operate
with that in mind. So to me, that's all magic is, right? But then it's like the exciting part. Like, okay, well if I'm gonna take responsibility for [00:19:00] this, then what do I wanna do with it? You know? And do I wanna do something like visionary and fantastical? And I guess that's sort of what magic is, right?
Like once I've said this is true, let me be intentional in the way that I use it. I'm not a law of attraction person, right? This is not like, oh, you know, the vibration you're putting out is like what makes you poor or rich? But I am gonna say then that we can kind of like acknowledge that like, you know, our vibrational body
has a resonance or a dissonance with other things around us, right? So that's kind of what, like essences do or crystals like, that's the whole point of healing crystal work. Or like flower essences. That certain energetic entities such as crystals, flowers, you know, animals, any kind of archetypal entity, organic entity has a vibrational field.
And that you [00:20:00] might be benefited by asking them to align your vibrational field with the vibration that they resonate at, so that you can kind of like pull in or resonate more deeply or reduce the dissonance with whatever it is that your goal is, right? So in this case it would be like money prosperity, you know peaceful relationship with money, resourcedness, you know, any of those things, right?
Zaneta: Yeah, that makes so much sense. the law of attraction kind of sets up a binary of like, okay, you're either vibrating high or vibrating low, and that's it. And it's the end of the story very quickly.
But I love that you're bringing in the complexity of all these different beings and these relationships to all these different beings, plants space, place, land, like getting into this idea of, each unique field and [00:21:00] each unique being and the kind of different perspectives and different things that we can be conscious of and in conscious collaboration with as we're healing around our finances or around our money.
And just building a, a more whole picture of that kind of journey.
Jessie Susannah: Yeah. And my Mercury in Pisces, so I'm like, Oh, you want an answer? Let me paint in a watercolor of the context of the situation. But anyone who is not Mercury in Pisces or who is new to magical work, right? If you think of like your most basic little magic spell where you're gonna like, take a green candle and you know, the empress tarot card and a green calcite crystal, right?
And sit down and you're gonna, you know, do whatever it tells you to do with the ritual. This is just an example, right? It's like in that we're saying, Okay, I'm taking the time, I'm focusing my intention, I'm focusing the energy that I have on [00:22:00] this goal. And I'm asking for allyship. I'm asking for, you know, friendship from the energy of the stone, Right?
I've identified this is the right ally for me in what I'm attempting to do right now. And in the archetype of the empress tarot card, right? And we're saying like, Okay, I'm asking for you to kind of like be in my crew as we try to get this thing happening. And I think of that as like the same way that you have friends that you call for specific things, right?
Like, Oh, I need, you know, whatever advice about my mom or advice around my boyfriend or advice about my landlord, you might call three different people for those three different things. Right? And it's the same way with our kind of like magical allies, crystals, archetypes, you know, herbs any of that, right?
So that's the kind of energetic context to what you're doing when you're playing out the technology of say, like a [00:23:00] spell or a ritual.
Zaneta: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Call a friend.
Jessie Susannah: Yeah. Phone a friend. Yes.
Zaneta: on who wants to be a millionaire.
Jessie Susannah: Yes, exactly. Exactly.
Zaneta: What's really interesting that I was kind of checking out in the book was like the different approaches that you lay out , not just a spiritual like, you know, I will it
Jessie Susannah: Yes.
Zaneta: be it kinda thing.
which is so easy to fall into that. And especially when you're first starting out doing some of this money ritual work, it's really, really easy to hang your hat on that. And so I'd love to hear about some of the different approaches that you share in the book and kind of, you know, maybe give people a little bit of an idea around like money witchery in its complexity and it's practical aspects, it's spiritual aspects.
It's emotional healing aspects, you know, all of it.
Jessie Susannah: Yeah, this is what I call the money, which three angles of healing. And it [00:24:00] is also on the philosophy tab of my website. If you don't have the book and you wanna get a little orientation, you can go look there. So for me, healing the way that I define healing is just movement of energy, right? Like we're shifting something.
And I think that when you're attempting to heal something, in this case we're healing our finances. But it really could be basically anything that you're going to see the most impact when you address and kind of show up and stay present with the practice and the process in these three different ways.
And one of them is the magical energetic, and that's, you know, what we're talking about. Like, you know, setting your intentions, lighting your candle, doing your rituals you know, calling in these archetypes. Then there is the practical logistical angle and [00:25:00] that's like, okay, great, you got the new job candle from the botanica and you like lit it and you said the prayer, but like, are you applying for jobs?
You know what I mean? Like, Like, no one's gonna just, I mean, maybe someone's gonna like come to your dorm with a job, but it's like also are you networking? Are you like letting everyone know you're looking for a job? Are you like, beefing up your LinkedIn profile or whatever it is for you in your industry, Right?
You have to like, be putting that on the ground, like, are you doing a little budget, what I call a snapshot budget? Like, have you looked at your spending and your needs for the last, you know, six months? Like, so you can get a really good grasp on how much you actually need per month and how much you would need to do the things that you're like not doing right?
I also wanna save for retirement, I also wanna, you know, get my teeth taken care of or get a new [00:26:00] couch or whatever. Right. And then being like, Oh, so this is the salary I would need so that you're like, out in the world being really clear. Like, I need a job where I'm making more than $75,000 or whatever it is, right?
So that you are looking with that level of detailed intention, you know, that's that practical angle you have to kind of pair those things together. And then the third angle is what I call spiritual, emotional. And spiritual to me is different than magical because spiritual is about the individual path that your spirit is walking in this lifetime, right?
This is like your personal curriculum, right? Like your soul's curriculum, what you came into this body to do and you know, what are the challenges and the tools that have been presented to you to transform alchemize, et cetera, right? So that is digging [00:27:00] into your behavior, your psyche, your stories, you know, your narrative, your fears, your hopes, all of those things.
And that's really the primary focus of this book, The Money Magic Book. There are, you know, magical pieces in it, and there are practical pieces in it as well, but it's primarily focused on that spiritual, emotional exploration. Like what are your personal challenges and blocks around money? And how can you support yourself in a healing journey to resolve and integrate some of them so that you can find more ease and peace moving forward.
Zaneta: Mm mm Yeah, it's really amazing because like you can do all the practical things. You can do so many spells, but there's so much power in kind of knowing the narratives and the mindsets and all the things that are under there [00:28:00] informing everything
There's patterning.
There's things that can inform you that you may not be conscious of. And so I think it's a really powerful and very valuable endeavor to take the time to like look at that stuff for yourself rather than just trying to suddenly jump. I get it because I've definitely experienced some really deep financial insecurity in my life.
And when you need something you fucking need it . Like, that's just what it is. And I value that also as an experience, but I also think that if you have the time and space at any point to look at this stuff it's pretty amazing. Like how much is in there. And can tell you about how you're operating with money , you know, and the choices that you're making, even if you thought you made a different choice.
Jessie Susannah: Yeah, at a certain point in our maturing process, I think we're all [00:29:00] confronted and really over and over, like cyclically. You know, we're confronted with the fact that like we often engage in behaviors or make choices that aren't really in alignment with our integrity or our desires, right?
Or even our ultimate sense of self care.
and then it's like, okay, well I guess I have to figure out why I'm doing that , you know, like, you know, in romantic relationship in our families, in, you know, whatever school work, like food, all these things, right? And money is just no different than that.
And yeah, it's not at all, like you were saying, you know, we all have, well, not we all, but many people do experience moments where, you know, what we do need to do is just focus in on a survival based level, right? Like, this is not a moment to like get into the whatever, Like this is a moment to like get the money and pay for the thing or whatever it is, Right?
But I think a lot of us [00:30:00] find that like over time, even arriving in conditions that are no longer requiring us to be so survival focused, we still replicate those behaviors and those feelings. And then it's like, well, fuck, you know, , I thought, like, I talk to people all the time that are like, you know, I thought if I was making, you know, whatever it is, $80,000 a year, I would feel like I had no problems.
And I do not feel like that
Zaneta: That's so, so deep. Oh my golly. I feel that so much. It's really interesting how even when the, for like a loose term here, but like the goal post, even when the goal posts shift, even when you're like not living, you know, hand to mouth or paycheck to paycheck, even [00:31:00] then, you can still be playing out those stories so deeply and like just not even realize how that's all being reenacted.
Jessie Susannah: Mm-hmm. . And to me, I know it's rough, but it's like get excited in those moments, you know, because in my personal spiritual beliefs like that's your work, that's your soul curriculum. That's like why you're here. in your body, you know, is when you hit those really sticky points. That's important work for your soul for reasons we might not understand, right? We're not privy to all of the information about like our existence, right? Or existence in general. But I think we're each like weaving a unique thread of evolutionary healing. So, you know, when you hit those sticky points, that's your honor, that's the work you're doing on behalf of like humanity, [00:32:00] on behalf of I don't know, universal healing in my personal opinion.
Right. And it doesn't mean it's fun to do it.
But in that big picture sense, like in some ways these sticky challenges, it's a piece of work that's like an honor that is given to you by creator, and that is really special. And it's not like annoying, you know, It's not like so many money things can be like, ugh, you know, why do I have to deal with this money thing I'm trying to focus on, like art and spirituality, you know, Or like I'm trying to focus on these other things.
But that is the work, it's a gateway. It's a door that is showing you, again, giving you a glimpse of like this challenge, this healing challenge that's being presented to you. A lot of times when I do financial coaching with people, You know, at some point in the session people are kind of like, Oh, right.
Like I guess all my money issues are basically the same as like all these other issues that I've realized in therapy like, oh yeah, I do have a problem [00:33:00] with like, whatever it is, you know, avoidance and like, actually the way I'm like avoiding intimacy with my finances or I'm being avoidant in my relationship with money is not really any different than how like I'm being avoidant with my mother or, you know, or how I like, you know, leave when like me and my girlfriend have a fight or, you know, whatever it is, right?
So it's like, it's the same piece of work and in a way money can just be like a door
to that information.
Zaneta: Wow. Wow. I love that. It's just so healing to hear you put that in, into terms that make so much, sense. It's like, yeah, of course there's this element of transference of these issues they're not necessarily just, you know, in your relationships, but they're also in, you know, your relationship with money.
And I always like that thought of relationship building with money. It makes me feel better actually from what I feel like I was [00:34:00] kind of brought up to think about money. That there's so much like extractiveness there's so much intensity and kind of divisiveness even.
And it's like, no wait, this is a relationship. This is a rapport. Like a quality of experience and living and walking and being together, I'm moving and journeying with this money.
Jessie Susannah: Yeah. And then the thing about it is, right, it's not either or. It's not like, oh, it's, you know, it's this terrible extractive thing, or you're in relationship with it. It's like both, right? Because these are the conditions that we're living in, right? Like if you're listening to this podcast, then you know, you've been incarnated into late stage global capitalism, you know?
Colonialism. We're living in a time of like very heightened, extractive mentalities, you know? And it's integrated into everything we do, right? And so it's like our [00:35:00] relationships do not exist outside of that.
So just like in our romantic relationships, we have to be like, I love this person and I just wanna be in love, but like here we are having to understand , what are the ways that we are, you know, even within our love for each other or are relating to each other, replicating and causing harm, or being harmed or, you know, both right of
every extractive system that we're living within, right? And we're like, okay, well I guess we have to find a way to love each other and be in relationship and also understand, you know, the way that we are touched in this bubble of being in love by, you know, patriarchy, white supremacy, ableism, like all these things.
And we have to kinda like do that work to hold all of those things together. It's the same with money, right? And maybe that's that sort of like law of attraction or it's [00:36:00] just any money work that doesn't hold like an intersectional perspective, I guess, or a, you know, understanding That everything we're doing is within a framework of oppression and privilege.
it's like our relationship with money. It's not going from demonizing it to being like, No, it's this great shiny, completely pure, energy. Money is just energy, you know? And then I can like be in relationship with it from that point where there's nothing wrong. It's like, no, we have to find a way to be in relationship with it, in the systems, it is not free from those systems and it's heavily implicated in those systems, right?
All of the, cast systems and extractive systems that we're in they're heavily, heavily financially. Based, right? They're financially influenced. So money is not going to be free from those things. Neither are we. And yet we have to have a relationship and [00:37:00] we can either have a very fraught very painful relationship, or we can try to do the repair work to have a more peaceful relationship that holds as much space for our humanity, our humanness, our, our dreaminess, our like liberatory ideals as possible.
Zaneta: Yeah. You know what this is bringing up for me as you're talking, it really reminds me of those of us who are not indigenous to a particular land and we yet live on that land, and how do we develop a conscious relationship that really holds the whole experience of being and working and living and loving and struggling, you know, in a place that you're not indigenous and that your ancestors either colonized or are [00:38:00] part of some kind of migration or something.
And how do you, how do you sit with that? How do you be with that? I think this is where being a witch is so fucking powerful because there's a lot of creativity, there's a lot of listening and like being willing to be open to what you're being shown and what you're being taught.
And I almost feel like the way that you're describing money and building relationship with money really reminds me of building relationship with land and as you were talking about, that spirit work or that work of your spirit in one lifetime. You know, it's like maybe not always supposed to be pretty
Jessie Susannah: Yeah. Yeah. I had the thought when you were saying that, right? Like sitting with the pain of causing harm, and when you were saying like, we have to kind of sit with it. It's like, yeah, we have to sit with it and [00:39:00] we'll sit with it for our whole lifetime and there won't be a solution.
You know, and that desire to have a nicely wrapped up solution or, you know, the perfectionism of those things. That's part of the colonial mentality also, right? And we kind of want to find these solutions in part motivated by feeling distressed at like the harm and pain that is being caused.
And also in part because the sitting with is so painful and so uncomfortable, but it's the showing up. To the sitting that is, probably most of the work.
Zaneta: Yeah. Even when we call upon these allies and we invite those connections of support in our spell work or in our rituals or ceremony, sometimes there's just listening and just being with them. You know, It's not about like what you're about to cast [00:40:00] sometimes, it's just how you're, able to just be there and sometimes when I do that work, it even feels just like I'm here to listen to pain, or to struggle with these beings and these spirits and like, and to just be a witness even,
Jessie Susannah: Yeah, it's the willingness to be uncomfortable and find tolerance and resilience and flexibility around sitting with pain.
Zaneta: Mm. Yeah. A lot of folks who listen to this podcast are trying to really be conscious creators. You know, they're trying to really access something that is love. So these ideas of creating a money spell or like trying to have a spell for the sustainability of your artwork or something.
It gets wrapped up in a lot of complexity because it's like, okay, money is this complex thing. And then like, what about [00:41:00] our dreams and our goals and our hopes, and how is that complex ? And like then how do you make a spell with confidence? How do you make a spell with confidence that you're not just kind of falling into that extractive stuff and falling into that.
I'd love to hear if you have any thoughts On this like fear of like almost doing harm when doing these spells, especially for your own artwork and your own creative dreams.
Jessie Susannah: I think that, again, it's just like accepting the imperfection, you know, and accepting that in some ways, you know, we are going to replicate and incorporate, these unwell or injured patterns that we have inherited and created. And again, there's not a purity outside of that. [00:42:00] You know, every vision that an artist has is, within the context of the body and the place that they're living in. And, every artist has to struggle with like, okay, well, like, yes, I do have these, inspired visions, but like, how is my lens impacting my vision?
And going with that metaphor, how is my lens impacting the vision? How's the way that my feet are standing on the ground, impacting the angle of the picture or, you know, those kinds of things, right? There's not a purity of vision
outside of that, I don't think. And so with this work, yeah, you're gonna replicate harm , that's where we're living. This is how it is. You know, trying to understand the way that these systems impact your lens and your desires and your vision, that is a [00:43:00] full lifetime and multi lifetime like lineages job. It's not your job to take this to the point of, purity and perfection because it's not gonna happen. And the thought that you could even do that is problematic, right? Like it's colonial, it's white supremacists. for example, with money, people kind of get obsessed with like ethical whatever, right?
And I'm like, there's no ethical consumption under capitalism. For most of us, there's no ethical production under capitalism, there's no ethical anything, right? And there's no ethical anything when you're living as a colonial settler on stolen land, right?
I'm white, I'm a settler on this land. Like, so I could buy a dress made of organic cotton or whatever. Like, does that make it ethical? You know, like, am I acting ethically? No, the entire context in which I exist is unethical. You know, my [00:44:00] presence here is unethical. And so how can I kind of like, strive for a purity of action within that?
That idea of purity is you know, in and of itself problematic. So it's like we can't make a pure, you know, unexploitative, unextractive money spell within
capitalism.
So stop trying, just so, just stop. Like, you know, it's like, just don't worry about it, you know? Not don't worry about it. But for me it's like, and I write about this in the book a little bit. Like, okay, well if we can't be ethical, if we can't be perfect and we can't be pure, like, then what are we striving for?
So I say like, if ethical is not necessarily possible, so strive to be responsible. You can't avoid these things. You have to[00:45:00] find a way to integrate awareness of them into what you're doing. So it's not about like trying to make sure that you have vetted out all of these you know, your sense of extractiveness before you, like, do a money spell.
It's like how do you bring the heightened edge of your awareness, like what you've been able to achieve, the level of awareness that you've been personally able to achieve at this moment in time. How do you make sure that you're bringing that into your money Spell. And I think then people struggle there, right?
Like, Oh, how do I do that? You know what I mean? Like how do I reconcile that with this spell maybe it's just like a money drawing, right? Like, I wanna make more money. How do I reconcile my awareness, my edge of awareness of like structural oppression and my desire to make money, You know?
Or my desire for comfort and security. How do I [00:46:00] reconcile those things? And then honestly, most people just check out.
But that's, the challenge of genius, right? Like that's where integrating things that feel impossible is where we become visionary. That's where vision. Is even relevant, you know?
Zaneta: I hear you a lot of people check out at that point, and yet that's where the work's kind of beginning in many ways. is like right there at that, edge almost of like, Okay, this is confronting me on some level and confronting some aspect of my existence in some aspect of what I've accessed thus far. And this is where I think like actually relationship connection with our allies, magical spiritual, however you want to frame that for yourself is so interesting because we don't have to have answers all [00:47:00] by ourselves.
Jessie Susannah: Hmm. Yeah. That's the faith, right? It's that little like emotional trust fall. Like, well, I have really done this work to get to this edge, right? Where I'm like, I don't understand how to reconcile acts and why. So let me just say a prayer. People have done that for all of time, right?
Like, I do not understand how this will happen. I need this to happen. It seems impossible. Let me like, turn it over to God or spirit, you know?
Zaneta: Yeah. Yeah. And, and even like for anyone who does channeling work or mediumship work or anything, I love to just sit down and channel and let that kind of help me see something that I have forgotten, And then I'm awakening to in this lifetime for whatever it is.
And often there's something that I'm just not understanding about things that also needs to be heard and needs to be felt and needs to be [00:48:00] lived with. Gathering pieces of a larger story that you just aren't seeing all of them all the time and, and couldn't possibly.
It's way too massive and way too big for any individual to hold. But it feels really, really healing to think about how casting a money spell and casting it with that prayer, it's like you're really opening something up there.
Jessie Susannah: In a multidimensional way, you are indicating that you are committed to staying present with the process. stay present to receive. Solution and movement. I'm not going to ignore it. I used to you know, in heightened anxiety periods in my life when I was so stressed about whatever, that it was like heavily impacting my sleep.
I used to sort of [00:49:00] say over and over to myself, as my kind of prayer and meditation to try to fall back asleep. I would say you know, basically my prayer was something upon the lines of, you know, please show me way, through whatever it is. I am not afraid of the answer, and I feel like that is in this, right?
There's loss in change and so many answers involve change or just having to sit with that pain, you know, but it's like that bravery of presence
is where that really massive opportunity for a shift
is.
Zaneta: Hmm. Wow, that's such a gift to hear. It's such a gift to hear you bring this in and weave it in to money and help kind of just show [00:50:00] us more ways of understanding how we can Be with money, have a relationship with money.
One of the big questions I think I get a lot in like client readings around their artwork is like, should I do this for a living? Should I pursue this artwork? And should I try to pursue it for, you know, income or for money? As someone who's like a gener like a you know, my dad was also a drummer and I'm a drummer and I've grown up with deep artist, poverty experiences. I really have a lot of thoughts about money and artwork.
But I would love to hear if you have any thoughts or any insights about creative work and money and if people wanna start, like, you know, diving into money magic around their artwork.
Jessie Susannah: Well, I mean, I think that question of, you know, should I do this for a living? Like, that's a big question. I think people should [00:51:00] sit with it and, and just be reminded that, you know, people have the same question with a lot of like small business things, and there's kind of different paths that people go with.
Being a professional, as in you're making your money from artist. You know, like I don't come from the art world, so I don't have any kind of like institutional or like ego based concept of like what professional artist means to me. To me I just mean like, you are paying the bills from money that you made from art, Right?
It is your profession, And I think like there's different paths that people go, right? Like there's the kind of you know, small business, like making a product out of your art. There's, you know, attempting to have a, quote unquote like fine artist career. There's, you know, working artists, right?
Like you're a drummer who goes on tours or, you know, whatever it is. There's you know, you're a working artist for hire, there's all these different options, but it's like [00:52:00] reminder that, you know, you're allowed to have hobbies and it's like anything can just be a hobby. The thing that makes it not a hobby, if we're like just in these I don't know, at the most basic level is, and I don't mean hobby in like a derogatory way, right?
I just mean like something that you enjoy doing, that you have passion for, that you're not trying to make money from. So once you say like, Yes, my intention is to make my money from this, I think like where people get stuck is they're like, I'm going to make money from this, but then they don't do the work or wanna shift the mentality that would make it possible. So it's almost like sitting in this like purgatory zone, you know? Like you can't be like, Yes, I will make my money being an artist, [00:53:00] but also I will subconsciously harbor these beliefs that like art should be free and , I'm lucky to be getting paid.
You know, it's like you have to really commit like, yes, if I'm gonna make money from this, I have to understand money you can't. Otherwise, it's sort of like a self sabotage, I guess.
Saying you're gonna do something for business, and then not like showing up to get the skill set, the knowledge, the like understanding of what that would look like.
is self sabotage. So being like, Yeah, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna, you know, whatever it is, sell my clothes designs and I'm gonna try to start doing that full time. But then you're not charging enough that would even make that possible. Right?
And you're not charging enough because of some, you know, whatever your subconscious beliefs are around it.
It's like that's an act of self sabotage, actually,
Zaneta: Yeah. [00:54:00] I really feel this so much because, there's a lot of Not really seeing the entirety of what that life would look like. Yeah. You're making the art, People are paying for the art, but also like, you know, how much it costs for you to live, you know how much it costs for you to make the art, you know, how much it costs for you to take care of yourself while you're making the art.
And you're willing to shift into doing that work that will make sure that that's coming through,
Jessie Susannah: Yeah, and practically just breaking it down like that, right? Like,
this is how much I need, this is how many I could make in a month. Like, so therefore, this is how much they have to cost.
Zaneta: Yeah. And the other thing like I think that comes with this conversation around money is time and energy. Habits around time and energy, because a lot of people are like, Oh my gosh, you like won this grant and that's so cool. And I'm like, well, I actually devote x amount of hours a month to being able to [00:55:00] apply for all these grants and like x amount of time building up this, this, this, and this And it's a lot of like sacrifice just straight up to pivot in that way, into like making something your work and getting paid for it regularly.
It's just a sacrifice of where you spend your time and energy often. And that's a fucking spell. spell It's like the, it is one of the best spells. I always like, think that my best spells are the ones where I just took a different action. I just did something different.
Jessie Susannah: Yeah. That's that logistical, practical thing, right? You're like, I have an intention to make a living off my artwork. That in intention is not enough. You know, how are you engaging in the opportunities then, right? So then pairing that with being like, Okay, I'm gonna spend 10 hours a week. on grants, that's gonna be 25% of my working labor or whatever.
That's the [00:56:00] logistical, practical piece. You know, it's the same thing we were saying earlier. If you're gonna burn your, like get a job candle, you need to be putting out the applications. You know, if you wanna make a living as an artist in a specific way that would be like grant appropriate, then like yeah, you've gotta, you know, take the class on how to apply for grants.
You've gotta set the time aside to do it because it's an offering, right? Like that time and energy is also an offering on the alter of the deity of Grants, whoever they may be.
Zaneta: Next time. Next grant I apply to I'm invoking the deity of grants.
And being like, Thank you, Jessie Susan. Susannah..
Jessie Susannah: Grant
Grantia, or something.
Zaneta: That's so, so great. Yeah, and being real with one self, like it's okay and this is where it's really [00:57:00] important. Like it's okay to not wanna do that. It's okay not to want to have a monetary exchange involved in your art.
Jessie Susannah: And that's where that kind of like self sabotage things come in where it's like, or just misery, right? You can't be like, Yes, I would like to make a career off of my art, but I am unwilling, you know, Which is fine, like we're saying, it's not like it's wrong to not be willing, but I am unwilling to do the work to get grant.
I do not wanna sell a product. I don't feel comfortable saying, my paintings now cost $6,000.
Zaneta: Mm-hmm.
Jessie Susannah: I don't wanna be an artist for hire who works on anyone else's vision. So it's just at the end of all that, it's like, okay, well you're gonna make a living off your work. How then, you know, and that's okay, right?
It's okay to feel all those things, but it just, at the end of the day, it sounds like you will need to like find a different source income [00:58:00] but people stay in that place and are like miserable and broke for decades.
Zaneta: Yeah. And I think that there's always this unraveling of like, is it a vision that's really true to my spirit or is it something that I've been carrying this programming for a while? Like, do I have to make my art and be, you know, making my money from my art?
Especially people who have been through like institutional art programs, it's like, yeah, of course you're gonna make your money from your art. Like, what the hell
else are you gonna do with your life?
Jessie Susannah: Well, and also then why did you get this degree? Or, you know, I think there's like degree guilt
also.
Zaneta: Whoa. Degree guilt. That's such a real one. That really comes through hard. Like, why did I do this? And I spent all this money and now I'm not quote unquote doing anything with it,
like as in doing something with it is then getting paid. hmm. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Like degree guilt?
Jessie Susannah: I mean, I am like a multiple time [00:59:00] college dropout. Like I love dropping outta college. I guess I've done it many times and and I've done a lot of weird things and I feel like for me, all those things synthesize in to making me a unique vessel for a particular thread of God's work, right? Like Money Witch comes out of that. You know, it's like I have, almost a decade in the sex work industry. That's where I learned a lot of small business. Like my small business journey came out of that. My accounting, you know, journey came out of that. I have a culinary degree. I have like, three semesters broken up, over two experiences at two different schools of like, high end liberal arts theory, education.
I'm sure there's other weird stuff I have in there too, you know, it's like, you know, I've like sold drugs and whatever else, right? And All of those things actually synthesize [01:00:00] to make Money Witch possible. So, whereas, you know, it cost X amount in tuition to get those three semesters of theory.
You know, and I don't have a degree. I could feel bad about that, or I could be like, actually, you know, those three semesters of theory were enough for me and I am using them, You know, I'm using them in the way that I like exist in the world and in the work that I do. So, it's like your unique journey just makes you who you are.
And it, it's like a little toolbox, So you're not always using every tool in your toolbox all the time, but they're there and you can pull them out when you need them. So it's like, just because you're not using this degree in a particular way in this chapter doesn't mean it's not valuable.
It doesn't mean it's not informing the way that you do things in the way that you're able to like show up to the work that you do now. Also, just forgiveness, You know, maybe it was like quote, a quote, a bad investment. You [01:01:00] know, people invest in things that they think are going to pay off, right?
Like, I think that's the thing with the degree guilt, the financial guilt on it of being like, I put all this money in with the expectation that I would get more money than that out. You know, that's the sort of like investment concept of college. People put in money and like lose that money or don't make that money back in all different ways all the time.
And when you sit in regret and don't have closure around it, it's like an open wound that you're bringing to everything that you do. So I think just debt forgiveness, you know, bad investment, forgiveness. Like it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to like change course. And you can think of it like that.
I got an MFA and I think it was a mistake for me to spend that money, you know? And
it's okay. It could be a mistake and it could be okay. And also [01:02:00] probably it wasn't a mistake anyway.
Zaneta: This is just making me think of so many things, so many ways that even from just a young age, we're kind of taught that your education is, this investment and then like the investment has to have a yield, a tangible yield of some sort, or some kind of product occurs from like, going through this, process of becoming, quote, educated in this thing or, whatever.
Even in just grade school or something like that. and yet, you know, I actually do a lot of teaching and I teach for like, some pretty wealthy folks. And sometimes what I've noticed in teaching is that, for these families, they're just happy that their kids are being enriched.
And maybe that's, you know, the privilege of being able to have expendable income or something like that. But there's also, I think, an element to it that it's like, this doesn't need to be something necessarily, it is something because it makes this person happy,[01:03:00] or like gives them some kind of, nourishment or makes them feel good or they feel good about themselves when they're doing this thing or whatever it is.
And so I think there's an interesting Point to like the idea of investing in, you know, a degree or going through that process and being like, Well, did you like any of it ? Like, Do you feel like you enjoy that, you know, these things? Like do you like using any of what you kind of went through?
Do those experiences feel like they were at all nourishing or enriching? There's a lot of ways to like, look at that and I love what you say about like having some forgiveness and I also think that's something that we kind of touched upon earlier in a different way with like the idea of sitting with like the pain
of money.
It's like
You did the fucking best you could.
Jessie Susannah: Yeah. And you got an arts degree, which was probably this moment of being like, How do I reconcile that i, you know, I feel like I am artistic, you know, my role in [01:04:00] society is being an artist and you know, I live in a culture that has very little opportunity for that to be true. What should I do? You know, like, what should I do?
And I think, you know, getting an arts degree or coming from one of these like institutional programs is like, it's an attempt at a reconciliation, you know? I think the financial piece lays in with either, right?
Because in that situation, you know, like a graduate degree is expensive, A lot of degrees are expensive. And one of two things probably happened in order to make that possible. Number one would be that you amassed a tremendous amount of debt in that experience, right? And well now I have to reconcile this experience of debt with future.
And that is hard, right? So it's easy to feel angry at yourself for, bringing that experience into your life, right? But ultimately that's a [01:05:00] systemic problem. So it's like you can't really, I don't know, self-compassion is important there. I think the second thing that could have happened is, you know, that if you come from a family that has money, your family paid a bunch of money for you to get this degree, and then it's like whatever that means to you in that experience, right?
Like there's this guilt you know, you're being guilted by external forces or you feel guilt to external forces. And it's also like having to reconcile with an experience of privilege, right? Like I utilized my privilege to get this degree, and there was an expectation with that, that I would continue to amass generational wealth with it.
And now I'm not. What does that mean? obviously there's all different threads that can weave into either one of those experiences.
Zaneta: Hmm. Hmm. I don't think I've ever heard [01:06:00] anyone talk about this in the way that you are, just with such clarity and warmth around it. It's just, I mean, I literally feel like my younger self is crying and being like, Jessie Susannah, where were you? ? 2000, something. Where were you?
Jessie Susannah: man, I was at the strip club, that's where I was.
I was at the strip club.
Zaneta: I needed to go visit the strip club.
Jessie Susannah: You needed to come find me. I was wild. I don't know if I was, I mean, I'm sure I was speaking with some clarity about something, but it was not the calm
Zaneta: Oh,
Jessie Susannah: version of myself that is present now.
Zaneta: I feel so grateful to just listen to you and hear what comes through your channel and just feel healing coming through. Like someone who just talks about this with such care, but also so much reality and, doesn't shy away from shit. It's really powerful and it gives me a lot of hope.
Honestly. It gives me a [01:07:00] lot of hope for all of us. Even if shit is so, you know, and It is.
so complicated and has a lot of strife around it. It's not necessarily like stopping us from engaging it's actually inviting in.
Jessie Susannah: Yeah, I like that framing.
Zaneta: Well, I'd love to hear a little bit about like, well actually I have one more question for you and I ask everyone on the podcast who comes in. What advice would you have for your younger self?
Jessie Susannah: Oh my God. I'm like, buy a house in the nineties. I. Yeah, like buy a house in like 1999, like don't spend any money on anything except saving money to buy a house in 1999, because then your life would be like, you know, much easier now.
That is my financial advice.
Zaneta: Where would you have bought a house
Jessie Susannah: Well, I don't know, [01:08:00] I, in 1999, I guess I had just left. I grew up in Fort Lauderdale, Florida and I had just gone to college, you know, and then I spent the next 15 years being like, Property is theft, man. You know, And like not wanting to even think about it, but I can't even, I mean, probably houses in Fort Lauderdale in 1999 were like, I'm sure I could have got a real good deal. I lived in Atlanta after that and I also, I mean, I was in Oakland. I moved to Oakland in 2001. You know, so buying a house in Oakland in the early two thousands,
I don't know. There was a
lot of opportunities. There were lots of opportunities, but I was too busy being punk to utilize any of them. So anyway, that's my like, time travel advice to younger me. It's very practical.
Zaneta: I love that. That's the most practical advice I've ever heard anyone give on this podcast. A house.[01:09:00] where can people find your work? Can you share a little bit about any upcoming stuff that you'd like to just shout out? Anything that's coming up, Anything at all.
Jessie Susannah: Yeah. I'm like, I don't even know where in time space I am. I just spent the last 10 days in Fort Lauderdale with family navigating like a lot of different dynamics and I definitely feel like very time traveling. So I'm like, I don't even know what's coming up. But what I would say is eternal is you know, my website, Money witch.com get the book.
I want people to read it. I want people to like talk to me about it and engage with it. I'm gonna, oh, starting at the end of April, I am doing a 10 month book club and you can you know, I'm going through the book chapter by chapter,
so you can even drop in their, you know, you can come to one event isolated or you could come to all of them if you wanted.
So that's on my website. yeah, I don't know. Follow me on Instagram and I'll tell you [01:10:00] what's happening when I remember ,
what's
happening.
Zaneta: What's your Instagram handle again?
Jessie Susannah: It's @money.witch because you know someone random has at Money Witch,
Zaneta: Of course.
Jessie Susannah: use it. It's like so random.
Zaneta: I know someone has my name. Like I don't have a, a super, you know common name and like someone has my name on Instagram and it's like, I think a baby .
Jessie Susannah: right. You're
Zaneta: I was like,
Jessie Susannah: doesn't need my Instagram.
Get her off of here.
Zaneta: posts.
Jessie Susannah: Yeah, exactly.
Zaneta: it,
Jessie Susannah: That's how at money witch is
yeah.
Zaneta: got moneywitch.com Which I was like, dang.
Jessie Susannah: Well I paid, I paid for it is how I got it. I didn't, I didn't have it the first. I've had money witch the business for about eight years and I started with , it's Heal Your Finances dot. That's the one I've always had. And [01:11:00] again, maybe that would be a big piece of advice to me to you know, 2014 me buy money witch.com was probably cheaper at that point.
But I started with HealYourFinances.com because I didn't know if money which would be viable or it would grow with me or you know, anything. But I thought, you know, Heal Your Finances will, grow with me no matter what I do. But, you know, at a certain point , in being in the digital world with the avatar of Money Witch, right, like being in the world with the avatar of Money Witch I was like, I have to own Money witch.com,
you know, I do not wanna pay.
I think I paid probably close to $3,000 for it, and I was like, I do not want to pay $3,000 for url. And especially I think when I bought it, that was, you know, it felt like more money at the time, but I was like, I have, you know, you have to.
Zaneta: Yeah. You
know, you know when you have to do that. I have some domains too that like for my other nonprofit work where it was like crucial that we kept it. And interestingly [01:12:00] enough, people have tried to kind of like fraudulently, like steal our work. And , once you get that shit down in the way that you need it to be , it's powerful.
Jessie Susannah: Yeah. Yeah. It's that legal protection work, which, you know, I did the same year. I bought it right around the same time. I also did like some trademark work
and you know, that kind of stuff. That's not really, I don't think about it. I don't feel super passionately about it, but you're like, Oh, this is necessary. On a level if you're going to like start operating. And I did it at the, in the moment I did the trademarking, I was attempting to negotiate like a bigger a podcast deal. Or I was like, somebody I knew was like pitching a podcast deal that had me on it with MailChimp actually. And then cuz they, that was like right when they were gonna start creating original content and you know, they came back in the negotiations and they said, We wanna call the podcast the Money Witch. And I was like, I need a [01:13:00] fucking trademark this shit right now because I need to, when I go to negotiations, I need to, even if that was the case, I need to be able to say like, you can use this name. Like, as long as the podcast project is affiliated with me,
you know, I am the money witch you can't. Then have a podcast called The Money Witch and hire someone else to be
the Money Witch on the podcast. You just can't,
you know, I have to be able to do that, you know? And it's the same, right? My book, Money Magic that is not my title that came from the publisher. And this is a whole other journey. I'm sure, you know, as an artist, as a community of artists, you know, anyone who's working professionally you can understand, right?
Like, that's not the title that I pitched with the book. I wanted to call it Heal Your Finances. And then they came back and they said, We wanna call the book the Money Witch and I was like, Absolutely fucking not, you know? Which is my personal opinion anyway, And then we landed on Money Magic.
So, [01:14:00] but yeah, that, I don't know, that legal journey, the kind of like ownership, you know, quote ownership, What's it called? Intellectual property. You know, that whole journey. That's a whole other artistic journey that I'm sure we could talk about for a very long time.
Zaneta: No, totally. I mean that stuff around like. You know, firming up those boundaries and really saying like, this is how it's gonna go down. It's powerful work. It's powerful, powerful work. I've had a lot of experiences with different like large entities and stuff, like kind of messing with some of my partner's work and things like that, and it's, ooh, you, it really, it takes you there, you're like really quick.
You're like, Okay, is what I care about. It shows you really, really fast, like matters and it, it engages you in ways that you didn't think you would engage in.
Jessie Susannah: Yeah. It's funny, like with the title of the book, the Money Witch like there's people who I say that to and they're just like, Oh, [01:15:00] why would you? Be upset about it. And I was actually quite upset and I, you know, wrote back to my publisher and they were like, Oh, we're so sorry. We thought you would wanna do that.
Lots of people want to title their book, you know, it's good for their brand. But I was like, appalled, you know, like, so I don't know. But you know, people have different understandings about it, but it does, it, it clarifies to you like what you care about, you know, Like I was like, No, this is a book project for you.
Like, this is not all of me. You know, This is not my memoir. It's not, it's not a compilation of my works. You know, It's a book, It's my first book. it doesn't warrant the magnitude of that title to me.
Zaneta: Wow. I love, love, love hearing that. And that's so interesting how the, the, I like the title of the book, The brand identity, you being this priestess essentially for what like Money Witch [01:16:00] is, and like having to say, No, that's not it.
Jessie Susannah: you know, to me, like Money Witch the Money Witch like that, you know, it's my, it's my avatar. And that's been a whole process, right. To explore, you know, I'm sure for anyone who has like any kind of public persona, like who is that? Is it me or is it the same? Is the Money Witch the same as Jessie Susannah Karnatz, you know, where do we, where's the line?
You know? but when they said like, Oh, we wanna title the book this, I'm like, that's my name.
Zaneta: Yeah.
Jessie Susannah: That's my name. It's like weird, like, would you be like, we would like to title the book Jessie Susannah Karnatz by Jessie Susannah Karnatz. You know what I mean?
Zaneta: I mean, if
it was your biography or something, maybe. And even then, not always.
Jessie Susannah: Exactly.
Zaneta: Wow. That piece at the end. Thank you so much for anyone who's listening to [01:17:00] this and thinking like, Oh, shit, like, I've never even envisioned this. , I hope Jessie Susannah
Jessie Susannah: yeah. Invite me back. I really wanted to say like, thank you. I have really loved this conversation. I'm gonna say, actually this is like one of my favorite podcast interviews I've ever done. you were acknowledging a lot of what comes through is, channeling, you know, like, I am a channel, I am a vessel, but I think the relation ship of who I am channeling with and the invitation how that invitation is shaped informs so much like what comes through.
And I've really like, loved everything that came through in this conversation. And it's helped me even have some, like, revelations about healing, about
like, other situations that I'm in. So thank you so much for creating an invitation holding space for some really cool things to come through. Thank you.
Zaneta: Thank you. I'm so appreciative and I know that like so much of what you shared today is just [01:18:00] like the stuff that